Not a second after I posted the last entry - Seattle Academy over North Hills in the finals - 15-11.
Both finals teams coming from pool A, and beating their semis opponents by 5 or more points. And Paideia took home 5th place, going through Heritage and Hopkins to do so. I have a feeling next year's Paideia Cup will have a crossover game for bracket seeding.
North Hills had beaten Seattle Academy yesterday - 15-9, adjustments were made i guess? Anyone who saw the game in person - what was the difference between Saturday and Sunday?
Sounds like a hell of a tournament on the whole, exciting ultimate all around, and another year continuing the tradition in which the debate rages who is best... east vs. west.
I stand by my last statement in the previous post though. I think this was a coming out party for North Hills, despite the finals loss, and easterns is going to be a dogfight between the perennial powers and the new kids on the block.
Comments on the tourney as a whole? Early thoughts on Easterns and Westerns? Its going to be a spectacular year for high school ultimate...
Sunday, April 13, 2008
Seattle over North Hills in the Paideia Cup Finals
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63 comments:
GO SEATTLE ACADEMY!!!!
yeah seattle way to represent, looks like its gonna be a nice 3 way battle between saas, lakeside and northwest with whoever can peak at the right time, and have a little bit of luck taking it home.
but....just so everyone knows, SAAS also brought along i think two, maybe three players that
A) dont go to their school
B) are worlds caliber players some of which made it
C) Would start on both lines for ANY team.
yes, their win was impressive, congrats, Bravo. But this isnt the team to expect at westerns.
So here is to SAAS lets give them a round of applause for taking home the cup. Pretty cool honor. but you guys should start practicing with your real team so it isnt as embarrassing when you get to westerns and arent of the same caliber
PS yes i do realize that you guys brought them because you would have had like what 9 guys without them and this is a tough tourney to play that with.
-The Spawn of Satan
who else did they bring that doesn't attend seattle academy?
and even if they brought two or three extra players, keep in mind that seattle academy had a last-minute injury, and the team already has one worlds player and 2-3 other worlds caliber players.
i wouldn't worry about westerns.
SA had a few guys that don't attend the school, some of which were world tryoutees...north hills was the best true "high school team" at paidiea cup; sa was good, yes, but i would call them more of a seattle all star team.
it was an exciting tourney--tons of close games with sawesome teams, 6 of which, without injuries, will put up an awesome fight in pitt.
it was saas plus ringers. not seattle allstar. big difference.
Enough about seattle and weather it was there true team or not....who were some stand out players?
any sign of bad spirit as was expirienced last year from the Junior NHs team?
Just wondering
anon: 10:31
i don't get what Seattle weather has to do with whether it was their true team or not.
North Hills had excellent spirit thoughtout the tournament. They were great losers and gracious winners. I thought that the Seattle All-Stars showed the worst spirit of any team there. Jimmy was physical to the point where he would tell players that he wouldn't contest it, but that they had to call a foul to get him to stop being physical (aka: cheating with intent)--pretty unspirited! Also Rhader spiked the disc, as did several of his teammates; on one occasion however, he slammed the disc right next to an opponent who bid for the disc...
I have to second that. Reyder and Hooper were too pf the biggest jerks i've ever seen play ultimate. I didnt get the chance to paly them, but just watching they were being way overly physical, and the spiking in the semi-final was absolutely uncalled for. I wish Padiea wouldnt invite them back. It was bad.
yea...don't invite the best team at the tournament back you idiots. I would spend less time complaining about spiking, and more time focusing how to beat them. And if thats all they did to warrant being called "too pf the biggest jerks ive ever seen play ultimate." then don't play college or club, thats the norm there.
yeah, i think a lot of those guys are used to playing really high level ultimate, where contact is more expected. think about if basketball was self-refereed: there would be tons of fouls based on what the rules are, but based on normal play and allowed contact, the game goes on.
i don't think it's bad spirit to play physical. jimmy was just trying to determine the physicality of the particular game. if you don't like it, call a foul and he'll stop.
college and club play rough. most people don't mind. like it or not, ultimate is turning into a non-contact sport like basketball is non-contact.
and honestly, there is a lot more to spirit than spiking. some of the nicest teams i know spike, and some total dicks don't.
anon 11:11
you can gripe about rehder and hooper's bad spirit for days, but like anon 11:59 pointed out, you won't get any better by dismissing some of your best chances to play with top level competition.
rehder and hooper may be physical, but they aren't physical b/c they aren't skilled; both of those guys are some of the best around, so feel lucky to learn.
There are a ton of whiners commenting about SAAS. Its bad form to complain so much about the team who won the tournament, sort of goes into the category of sore losers.
Sure they might have been "too physical" or they had the "worst attitude" that you have seen...but just like what anon 1:49 said, matt and jimmy they are great players and i feel that generally playing with skilled players makes any game better.
SAAS's entire line had only great and very good players on it and they won the whole thing. SAAS's first show ever at Paideia. I'd be spiking in the semis.
In conclusion, stop whining.
Did i play physical? yes. Did i Cheat? absolutley not. If anyone on this blog has played decent level college or club ultimate, they know how physical it actually is. The way i played is the way all college players will play. If you complain about this stuff in college, you will be laughed at. Stop complaining about how I play, because I can tell you right now that you will be in for a suprise in college. And if you want to talk shit about me and rehder, post your name. Overall it was a great tournament and much respect to all the teams there. Again, post your name if you want to be taken seriously.
Jimmy Hooper
I'd have to agree with Jimmy here. Having been to a few college tourneys with a few of our SA players, the physicality is much higher at club level. We play hard physically because that is what we are used to, so please don't bombard us with insults for playing more physically. Every time Jimmy or Matt made a bid, it was in the best interest of the game, which was either to make a catch or a defensive block. We don't go into games with the mentality that we are going to purposefully foul or knock dudes over. We play to win, simple as that. This doesn't mean we put down the other team or play a foul game, we just do what we need to do to bring home the W.
-Stevie P.
For what it's worth, the self-officiating portion of Ultimate means that players have to communicate about the appropriate boundaries of game play. A player can certainly call a foul to communicate when a player has crossed the line but saying it in another way like "when you mark you are consistently fouling me" is equivalent. If the thrower has said as much and you agree that you are fouling on the mark you should stop fouling. To do otherwise IS cheating. I didn't watch SA or Jimmy enough to say whether I thought they were over the line. And I certainly didn't hear any interactions between Jimmy and the players he was marking and if they agreed to a play more physically (which is also ok).
As for HS vs College or Club play, one reason HS play is more fun to play in and to watch than College play is that it is more fluid with fewer called violations. I was blown away by the pace of the Amherst/Columbia pool play game and the excitement. I don't think college play and physicality should be the model for HS play.
As for the spiking, I missed part of the captains meeting so I'm not sure if Michael Baccarini mentioned it but, typically he asks teams to refrain from spiking. If he did and if teams ignored their host's request I think that's certainly unsportsmanlike.
Congrats to Seattle Academy for the win. I'm excited for Easterns and more chances to see Columbia, Amherst, North Hills, and Paideia as well as my first chance this season to see Pennsbury. Should be a great event.
-Kyle
I had a lot of fun playing this weekend. It was a lot of fun to play with teams we had never played before. The intensity and level of play of these teams was impressive.
We brought 12 players total, and played half of the final with 9. One of our players got sick saturday night and didnt play sunday, leaving us with 3 subs.
The reason that we brought 4 kids from nearby seattle schools was that we could not get enough kids from our own school to come. We were not trying to stack the team, it was just the kids who were able to come.
That said, having these players was both an advantage and a disadvantage. Obviously these 4 players were strong overall players, a good addition to the team. However, it was sometimes difficult integrating new players into our team without ever practicing together. Also, it was obvious from the start we were going to need everyone of our players, bringing less then half of the number of players than the other schools. It was hard to compete with the level of intensity of the other teams with only 3 people on the sideline.
I had a lot of fun playing teams from the East for a first time. People are obviously going to say that we brought a YCC team to a high school tournament, but I dont think so and we still had alot of fun. Thanks to Paideia for letting us come to the tournament.
Simon Montague
#9 Seattle Academy
Jimmy--
You did cheat by acknowledging that you were fouling the player that you were guarding, but refusing to stop unless they called something. This does happen in college, but that doesn't make it ok.
As a player who participated in the paidiea cup and played seattle twice, I would have to say those two games plus the one paideia game, were the most physical, enduring, and exciting games of ultimate I have ever played.
Me and my fellow teammates were all discussing how great the mutual respect was for each-other during the games. We were talking about how much fun it was running vertically down the field pushing and shoving trying to gain ground on the other.
Standing on the sidelines watching Julian from SA and Alex from NH play was one of the most exciting match-ups I've personally seen. Those two players were battling it out every point. They both played physically with respect to the other player. Like Kyle said the self-officiating portion of Ultimate is what sets the boundaries of the game play. Some players enjoy physical play, and others don't, it is the players responsibility to speak up if he/she does not agree with the way another player is playing.
As to the game and the difference between saturday and sunday? It would start with the 5 seattle breaks to take half. Seattle recognized they needed to gain ground and they did. Seattle played a "poachy" D against NH spread and NH could not figure out what to do about it. Seattle came out with a lot of fire and energy. As to the people complaining that they weren't from one school, I think that you should stop complaining and congratulate the SA team for putting on such a great display of ultimate and for playing such a great tourney.
Good tournament to all the teams that were there, you guys are what make Paideia such an exciting HS Ultimate Tournament.
#24
Don't get me wrong, I think that the Seattlers were the best group of players there and I congratulate them on winning. I also have no problem with physical play as I play that way too. I just think that Hooper went too far. When you knowingly fouling to gain an advantage you are breaking the rules and trust of the game.
Anon 11:37, this is not the place to cry about other players, he was one of the best players at Paideia cup, and you should not be complaining about him openly here. What you should have done is talk to him personally at the fields, or even better during the game.
Jimmy it was a pleasure playing against you and I for one had a great time playing ultimate against you, well trying, haha.
Good luck the rest of the season, wish you guys could make it to Hopkins.
#24
Anon 11:37. I presume you are a paidea player because the one call in question took place in that game but it would be nice for you to stop being a punk a post your name. On the mark i was not intentially fouling him nor was I that physical. He never called a foul which leads me to believe that he didnt think that there was a foul being committed and that he accepts that level of physical play. What I was doing on the mark could be called a foul (I would most likely not contest) but any contact could be called a foul. I did not refuse to stop, I just assumed he was ok with the physicality because he did not call anything.
Both of the North Hill's games were amazing and at the same time intense. They are an incredible team that plays with a lot of respect for their opponents.
Jimmy Hooper
this whole thread is pretty illegitimate.
spiking is not bad. physical play is not bad. learn how to play, and stop complaining.
also, jimmy is a player who knows how to play. but he is not that good. if you cant get over his fouls, you are not really going anywhere.
c
All I'm going to say is this:
I'm hearing a lot of talk, which doesn't mean shit. If you really want to prove your point anon 1:22pm, first of all post your name and second of all, prove it on the field. If you don't think Jimmy is "that good" then I suggest you put your money where your mouth is and take him on the field. I've been on the same team as him and seen him play for 4 years. He is a very talented player, and unless you can out perform and outplay him on the field, I suggest you eat your words and sit down.
-Stevie P.
I don't know why people are complaining that Seattle Academy won. If fouls were made, it's the responsibility of the player being fouled to call it. The intesity of the tournament obviously increases adrenaline which would increase the physicality of the players. To ask players to tone that down is almost directly asking them to play at a lower level of skill which to players that are as determined as jimmy is, is completely unacceptable.
Sam Stelle
i played on the seattle team this weekend and i would just like to say Jimmy really IS that good, after playing with him this weekend and seeing him play in seattle it is safe to say he is one of the best, if not the best handlers on the west coast. physicality is one of the aspects of ultimate that makes the game exciting and competitive and if you don't like it, or arn't used to it then you have obviously never played high level ultimate. this tournament was great and the hospitality of everyone made it lots of fun and made use feel welcome and at home. coming from seattle was long trip but was deffinetly worth it to play with the highly competative and strong teams that were there. i felt nothing but respect from the other teams so it is disappointing to see a barrage of attacks against the way we played at the tournament which in no way was malicious or intentionally disrespectful. i had a lot of fun and certainly think easterns will be a great tournament with all of the strong teams on the east coast that we have seen.
Casey Macphee
#30
Northwest
does anyone know where i can find the pictures from this weekend. i know there were some taken, but can't seem to find them.
thanks
o give me a break. jimmy is a good player, and i would rather have him on my team than be playing against him. but he is definitely overrated. first of all, he is way too slow.
Before this gets too out of control, I wanted to post and say that Paideia players do not post on this site, in fact, I'd be suprised if more than a few of us even knew about this blog.
I would really like to congratulate everyone on an excellent weekend of great, spirited, athletic, and fun play. Thanks to everyone for traveling down hereto participate in such an event. It would not be possible without YOU.
As for the "all-star team" complaints, they are ridiculous. We were well aware that Seattle Academy was going to have to pick a few extra bodies to make the trip and we were more than happy with it. It was awesome that a bunch of guys from 3000 miles away wanted to come all the way to Atlanta to play some Ultimate, and even more awesome that we got to play them! I hope that in the future, even more teams will want to make the journey from the west coast.
Again, congrats SA, you guys played an awesome tournament and whoever thinks otherwise, well, I have to disagree with them.
Later tonight, our (John's and mine) website (YouthUltimate.com) is going to disable anon posting. There will be a longer explaination tonight, but in short, we don't want an anon comment war--if you don't want to put your name on a comment, it probably just shouldn't be written at all.
Thanks again from Paideia to all of you who came to Atlanta. Oh, pictures can be found on the tournament website: paideiacup.googlepages.com
-Michael
Speaking as someone who played Seattle this weekend, all the allegations of bad spirit or gross physicality are exaggerated (although I do think it would have been nice if their team had consisted of players only from Seattle Academy).
It's a criminal waste that the first 30 posts on this thread have been about a non issue. Plenty of real storylines came out of Paideia:
Worlds players didn't seem as dominant as they were two years ago. All but two teams had at least one player or alternate. Of those, only Alex Thorne and Sam Brickwedde seemed to be definitely the best player on their teams. That isn't too say that they were the best at the tournament. Only that they held North Hills and Hopkins, respectively, together.
The four Easterns attendees provided an interesting preview of the likely semis of that tournament. Paideia had a barn burner with North Hills at the same time as Amherst had one against Columbia. In the end, North Hills triumphed by two and Columbia by one. Those two didn't get to play each other, but North Hills did go on to beat Amherst 15-10, and Columbia went on to lose to the Seattle Academy team that North Hills both beat and were beaten by. Further complicating matters was Columbia's loss to Amherst after taking half in the third place game.
As far as changing the expectations game, North Hills looks a whit ahead of the rest of the pack. They would be significantly ahead if they hadn't scored 11 on Seattle in the finals immediately after Columbia put up 10. It would also have helped if they had avoided nearly losing to Paideia.
Columbia and Amherst would have to be somewhere just behind North Hills. It's unclear which team has an edge, although the strength of Amherst's coaching is a point in their favor.
Paideia is a whit behind them, if only because of that team's relative youth. They demonstrated the ability-against both Seattle and North Hills-to move the disc quickly despite significant losses from last year and more experienced opponents.
A big question is whether Paideia or Pennsbury will join NH, ARHS, and CHS as the fourth semifinalist at Easterns. Both graduated very strong classes. Both are led by younger players.
Terry well put, it was great to be back down in Paideia this weekend, especially with the highly competitive teams there. This years Easterns will prove to be very competitive with the likes of the teams that came to Paideia plus the addition of Pennsbury.
Again, congrats to SA who showed they were the best team this weekend in Paideia.
Thanks for posting the pictures site.
#24 jack ross
north hills
what is a whit
Greg Arenson is by far the best player on Hopkins and was dominant the first points against Amherst when the score was going back in forward, there is no way you can say the Greg didnt hold hopkins together.
As Thorne and Brickwedde being the best two players by far I would have to disagree. Ben Funk and Colin Connor were both dominant and even with Thorne. On Hopkins, #8 and #23 were also good. #8 (dont know who he is) was out sized by a lot in two games, Columbia and Paideia where he and #23 seemed to switch on Xander, and Michael Terry, he also didnt sit a point, and was huge on offense, and #23 was big on offense and D....for Hopkins I would say the best player at the tournament for most of the games was #8 and for North Hills Ben Funk
and I would say the Josh Cincotta was much more impressive then Xander.
Don't disable anonymous posting. What's better? A very few, signed posts? Or a bunch of anonymous posts containing a few bad apples? Not all anonymous posters are immature adolescents jonesing to give an insult; the vast majority are coaches and players who would find it uncomfortable to have their strategic insights or predictions associated with them on the field, for obvious reasons.
I'm not saying that the level of ad hominem attacks hasn't gotten too high here. It has. It's just that restricting youthultimate to an uninteresting trickle of comments is going to have the effect of trapping clean anonymous posters here. Youthultimate has the potential, as a newer site run by actual, obviously competent, players, to siphon off some of the more well intentioned commenters from playultimate. Limiting it will make this the only forum for interesting anonymous discussion (which there is a place for). And then we'll be stuck with this kind of thing: 30 comments about nothing at all.
Depending on the part of the country you're from (East Coast or West Coast), a whit is either just a bit smaller, or just a bit larger, than a smidgen.
Which coast is which? And is a whit smaller or larger than an iota?
anon 4:38 - "Youthultimate has the potential, as a newer site run by actual, obviously competent, players, to siphon off some of the more well intentioned commenters from playultimate."
because the 11 contributors to playultimate arent actual players, or obviously competent players.
and because clearly youthultimate would *only* be a crossover for respectful anonymous commenters...
long live free speech, long live playultimate.
Seeing as I forgot to say it earlier, Paideia cup has been by far the most exciting and fun tourney I have been to in some time, and I would like to give kudos to all the teams that were there, especially CHS and NH for their sportsmanship and excellent competition that they gave us on Sunday. As for all the talk about Jimmy and all the attacks on his game, enough already. He is a good player. And to quote this state ment:
"o give me a break. jimmy is a good player, and i would rather have him on my team than be playing against him. but he is definitely overrated. first of all, he is way too slow."
I'm not boasting in anyway here, but I would consider myself a pretty fast player, and Jimmy is just as fast as I am, as well as other quick players. saying that he is "way too slow" is a lie.
Let's all agree to stop attacking individuals, and for that matter teams altogether. Last weekend was a great experience and I would hate to end it on a sour note.
Again, thanks to all the teams who played last weekend, especially Paideia for hosting such a fun and exciting tournament.
Stevie P. #32
I'm glad you asked. An iota is actually the amount by which the whit is smaller or larger than a smidgen.
CHS is coached by a very strong coach as well. Nunez does not have the resume Booth has, but lets not forget what he has done for CHS for the past few years that he has been coaching them. I give CHS over Amherst this year part because CHS has more experienced talent and part because they have the drive this year.
North Hills is nasty always has been, always will be I am saying this loud NORTH HILLS WILL WIN EASTERNS.
Pennsbury will beat Paideia but it will be a battle. They will on the other note not beat CHS or ARHS. They are good but young!
Jake
The skills of the High School players are going through the roof. I've played for 30 years and attended dozens of worlds and nationals and what I saw this weekend at Paideia was some of the most exciting, skilled, and spirited play I've ever seen. Our sport is going places and it's thanks to communities like Paideia, teams like SA traveling across the country, and these kids who are just taking this game to another level. What a future this sport has, wow.
As a North Hills parent I want to say that NH is not about Alex Thorne, it's a team through and through, on any given point there are any of nine kids who are the best player out there. Take a look at these pictures if you don't believe me:
http://iammichael.smugmug.com/gallery/4707994_yT4K9#278566084_FviTV
Henry Thorne (incredibly proud father of Alex and Max Thorne)
Micheal,
Heard on Sun. that you may've torn up your knee, any truth to this?
Ben Swirbelow is the best player on Columbia, and sorry Josh and Zander but its not even close.
1)Ben
2)Jordan
3)Josh
4)Nunez
5)Zander
Isaac Saul #19
Pennsbury Varsity Ultimate
p.s. anon posting is sooo lame.
I know CHS was filming their games, anyone from CHS know if you are posting those online and what the website is? thanks
If they ever post anything, it will be on columbiaultimate.blogspot.com
I would think Zander is higher on that list Isaac. He is a very competent athlete. I don't know if you have covered him but he can really jet. Why so low? I admit I haven't playd Columbia this year, but I did cover him last year.
-Ryan Holmes
#15 Needham
Isaac was kidding I am sure being that Nunez is not even playing, he is the coach. Also Swerdlow has the best body on the team not sure about the best player!
Jake
more ben swerdlow
Anon 8:42:
I'm still unsure of what the injury is. I went to the doc yesterday and will be getting an MRI very soon. I'm hoping for the best!
Thanks for the concern and thanks again to everyone who made the trip to Atlanta this past weekend!
-Michael
My team (NE RUSH) and I had a FANTASTIC time at the Paideia Cup. I'd like to send a big should out to the Paideia community for running such an organized, competitive, spirited, and fun event. Bravo.
I can't wait for PCup '09 :)
Lots of pictures from the weekend are online right here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jseamon/
i would just like to say that paideia cup was the one of the best tournaments that i have ever been too. it was interesting playing against east coast team and players that i had only heard of and never played against. im sorry if people feel like i play too physical but ultimate is a growing sport and isnt a non contact sport anymore, and there is going to be some sort of contact. i think overall i had one foul called against me during the entire tournament, which i fairly uncontested because i am clumsy and obviously bumped him. i do feel like my spirit is bad on the field and am continuing to work on it. SA won the tournament strickly because of how we were able to keep a positive attitude. we lost our game against north hills the first day, just because we were getting down on each other and yelling at each other. in the finals when we were down we were able to stay positive by swearing, yelling, and spinking it, to get each other pumped up, which should be legitiment for any team. i feel like if north hills had kept there intensity we would have gotten crushed, but they got down on each other for doing little mistakes which caused more little mistakes and soon they got to each others heads, which we had done the first day. now for spiking i do it to keep my teams spirits up, i dont do it to be a dick to other teams or anything. for almost spiking it on a kid, i would have to disagree, because i only spiked it once the whole tournament and it was against columbia... they taped it and once if u would like evidence check the tape. also i would just like to say if michael bacharini didnt want us spiking at the tournament i had never gotten that message, and if that is true i would like to apologize.
Matt
p.s. my last name is spelled Rehder
well said.
good call rehder. nothing was said at the captain's meeting about not spiking. but i think with baccarini's stance on spirit, it is probably an unspoken rule.
Rehder,
North Hills did not notice any bad spirit while playing you guys. We feel spiking is just a part of game, and yes it is there to pump up or turn up the intensity.
Our saturday and finals game were some of the best ultimate I have ever participated and thanks for the competition.
jack ross 24 nh
Yeah guys,
I was only kidding, Josh is so much better than Ben.
-Isaac
why is there absolutely nothing on this site about paideia cup girls?
Sunday photos from Michael Smith
yo, i think everyone just needs to stop bitching. Its ultimate frisbee, calm down, its not that big of a deal, its a fun game, I wasnt even at the tourney and I am getting pissed off about kids complaining about physicality, look, physicality is a good thing. I like the way Jimmy plays, it adds something, when people get soft and start complaining online about how someone played, thats exactly what gives frisbee a bad name. I really like frisbee and I want it to become a respected sport. This will never happen if little highschoolers bitch because someone bumped into them.
If there was no call on the field then there should be no question about it now. Your all being silly heads for complaining.
GOod work Seattle on holding it down.
Chris Pigott
(I dont really know my number its either 15, or just The Best, but regardless if your feelings are hurt by this post you can bitch at Chris htough i prolly wont be back on this thing i was just really bored.)
o and Casey I read your comment up there a ways, hey bud hows it goin?
yo i heard rehder didnt make worlds... he seemed pretty dope at paideia, whats up with that??
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