c/o the UPA website...
8 Youth Club Open teams
Denver Summer Youth Ultimate - Denver, CO
Madison Youth Spring League - Madison, WI
Minnesota High School Ultimate - Minneapolis, MN
Pittsburgh High School Ultimate League - Pittsburgh, PA
Austin & Houston High School Leagues - Austin/Houston, TX
Disc Northwest Youth Spring League - Seattle, WA
New England High School Ultimate League - New England
Philadelphia High School Ultimate Eductional League - Philadelphia, PA
8 Youth Club Girls teams
Denver Summer Youth Ultimate - Denver, CO
Madison Youth Spring League - Madison, WI
Minnesota High School Ultimate - Minneapolis, MN
Disc Northwest Youth Spring League - Seattle, WA
New England High School Ultimate League - New England
(3 bids available)
8 Youth Club Mixed teams
Minnesota High School Ultimate - Minneapolis, MN
Pittsburgh High School Ultimate League - Pittsburgh, PA
Youth Ultimate Cincinnati - Cincinnati, OH
Disc Northwest Youth Spring League - Seattle, WA
New England High School Ultimate League - New England
(3 bids available)
so wadaya think? fair choices? obvious favorites? im noticing one missing team from the Open side of things (who was there last year) - wheres Georgia? other than that there are two new teams - Philly and Denver, the rest are returning from 05 performances.
other areas (california, oregon, north carolina etc) were bids sent in? or were there no organizing factors? i wanna hear everything you've got.
also any thoughts on why it is only an eight team (per division) tournament? why not a standard 16 for open at least (if there are that number of teams with interest)?
mixed and womens - who is going to round out those last 3 bids?
Wednesday, March 15, 2006
YCC Teams Selected
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16 comments:
I can't comment for all of California, but at least for our team, it isn't a priority at all. If I want top level competition I can try out for/play for a competitive team around here, or I can go to the big tournaments in the area. I don't need to fly across the country to try to prove that my state is better than any other state.
Which brings me to my bigger point, that I think the whole YCC idea is ridiculous. Nationals was split into Westerns/Easterns because teams didn't want to/couldn't travel across the country, and the UPA felt that it would foster growth if Westerns/Easterns were easier to attend, a goal which I support whole heartedly. YCC's were created to sort of make up for the loss of East competing against West. The problem is, it doesn't make up for that. Last year everybody wanted to see Northwest take on Amherst, and see Paideia available to play at Easterns. YCC's doesn't solve this, as Drizzle wasn't Northwest, and I don't think the Atlanta team was all Paideia. To me it's just a tournament so that somebody can say that they made the team representing their state and they're an awesome player... I don't feel it is an event that contributes to the growth of HS ultimate.
I'm not saying that should never happen. In 5 or 10 or 20 years or whatever it is when there are youth leagues in all parts of the country and youth club teams actually practice together like club soccer teams or AAU basketball teams. At this point, however, I don't really like the event.
-The YCC is counterproductive? This reasoning does not make sense.
-Too much work?
I haven't heard anyone from UPA HQ complain. Their mission is to foster the growth the sport, and they have the resources to do both YCC and HS. I don't think either interfered with the other.
-Contradictory?
Why does there have to be a main goal? WEasterns are in May and the YCC is in August. I'm pretty sure Oscar Pottinger didn't take it easy at Club Nationals so he could play better in the college season.
I agree that there is a lack of infrastructure: there are states without tournaments and only a limited number of true leagues. However, there are leagues that are serious and have a championship trophy, etc. Their numbers will only continue to grow, and as they do, the YCC will become even better.
OK, I thought I'd come on to clear a few things up and make a few suggestions.
Before I start, I'd like to say that I really like the idea of this blog and I think it's heading in the right directions.
What would be really cool is for the authors of this Blog to talk directly to the UPA before spreading misinformation. If this is to be a news source, why not do a little research - it will improve the quality of what is posted, in addition it will help the UPA be more responsive to the members and help the readers of this Blog understand how and why things are happening in the world of Youth Ultimate. Some sources for that? For example for this post you can go to the website and check out the process for awarding bids: (http://www.upa.org/programs/youthdev/2006guidelines) and the frequently asked questions sections which addresses the issue of why only 8 teams/division (http://www1.upa.org/juniors/championships/ycc_faq) if you still have questions after that like "what's up with Georgia not making the YCC?" you can e-mail me at kyle.weisbrod@upa.org and ask "what's up with Georgia not getting into the YCC?" (the answer is that they did not submit an application).
As for the folks posting, if you want responses to questions like "why did the UPA split into Easterns and Westerns" you can do the same thing. There's a frequently asked question section about Easterns and Westerns at: http://www.upa.org/juniors/championships/EasternsandWesternsFAQ. And once again, if you still have questions you can e-mail me directly becuase frankly, I work for you.
It sounds like folks here are proposing that the UPA hold one tournament - a National HS tournament once a year. Honestly, while this might be the most satisfying event for the top 16 teams the problem is that many, many other teams and players get left out. The YCC is an event where good players without a strong team or with no team at all can participate. It encourages players that play against each other in one season (in Spring HS) to play with each other and promotes Spirited play in that way. It will also promote the sport as players that play summer club league or with a YCC team can go back to their school and try to start a HS team if they don't have one.
Just becuase the UPA has chosen to split Easterns and Westerns does not mean that other tournaments can't host the top HS teams in the country. Amherst Invite, Spring Reign, the Padeia Cup, and the up-and-coming Denver East Invite seek to do just that. When we held HS Nationals, it was just HS Easterns anyway except for an occasional west coast team - so really not much has changed.
When we made the decision to split HS Nationals into Easterns and Westerns we did it after talking to youth players and organizers from around the country and they agreed that it would help promote growth better. I feel that we made the right decision as the number of youth members the UPA has has grown from 342 in 2002 to over 3,700 in 2005. The revenue that we get from that membership helps us to further spread the sport through PE clinics, increased support to state championships, and our coach certification program. These in turn allow high school Ultimate to grow providing players with more opportunities to play and compete at their level.
When I played high school Ultimate (graduated in 1997) my team had to fly 1,200 miles to play another high school team (and we had to walk to practice in snow, uphill both ways) I believe the UPA's programs and the work of organizers throughout the country both inside and outside of the UPA's structure has made that a thing of the past in many places and this growth won't stop anytime soon.
Sorry this post became so long. When it comes down to it, the UPA is working for you and we want your input on how to make it work best. At the same time, if you want to help guide us and change our structures, it is helpful if you understand how these structures came about. We are here for you when you want to ask those questions.
Hey all,
I agree with Kyle on all points. He is doing a great job at the UPA and should be thanked a lot more often than he is. (Thanks Kyle!!)
I would love to have played Amherst last year (and every year), not to prove who was the best, but to have a chance to play against the team that plays at the highest level of skill and with the highest spirit. I don’t mean that for a really good team they have decent spirit. I mean that their spirit is as high as their level of play. Also, Tiina runs the best HS program around, bar none. (All you big public high schools should follow her blue print.) And by the way, Tiina and I were big supporters and both on the committee that made the recommendation to the UPA board for the creation of HS Easterns and HS Westerns.
We got the same caliber of competition (sans Amherst) at Westerns in 05, as we did at HS Nationals 04. (We beat Columbia HS, Wissahickon HS, Univ. School of Nashville, and South Eugene before losing to Amherst in the final with our team of mostly 9th and 11th graders at Nationals.) I look forward to the day when we have a Cascadia Championship with OR, WA, BC, and ID, so we don’t have to fly at all during the high school season except to attend an invitational.
Drizzle did have 9 of our “power 12” from the NWS program. Yes, last year we had 12 very strong players on our HS team. (This year we don’t have that many) Could we have sent a pure NWS team to YCC? Yes. Why did we not? Because that would not have been fair to the other HS ultimate players in Seattle who have worked so hard to build up their teams and who made the risky jump to single gender from coed. We are a tight knit HS and MS community in Seattle. YCC is designed for the most dedicated of the HS ultimate players, not for the casual player.
Kyle is right about doing research. The yahoo e-group is a good place to get started:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/ultimate/messages
Below are things I posted in the past about these issues that explain my point of view and can give a lot of insight into one point of view on all of the issues related to the growth of youth ultimate. These are somewhat dated. A few things have changed. I am now a bigger supporter of single gender club ultimate. My school now has a formidable track program that I compete with for athletes and we don’t have many internationals playing ultimate at my school anymore. Pretty much everything else is accurate.
This is my initial reaction to the UPA kicking club teams out of Junior Nationals (before Kyle came aboard)
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/ultimate/message/1329 (Sun Feb 25, 2001)
This is something about HS Nationals 21 months later.
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/ultimate/message/2633 (Thu Nov 28, 2002)
Same here except it is about youth club.
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/ultimate/message/2635 (Thu Nov 28, 2002)
[Can we post links on this blog?]
I hope this helps.
Mike Mullen, Boys Varsity Ultimate Coach
The Northwest School
Too much work can also refer what to coaches and players need to put in.
Ryan,
Here is what I want to know:
1. Exactly which high school do you (or did you) play or coach for?
2. Did you read the posts on the links in my previous comment explaining the reasons for moving away from a HS Nationals?
3. Tell me what you know about the history of my boys team (The Northwest School) during the past two years.
4. Tell me when there has been a Ultimate HS Nationals that all the best high school teams have attended?
5. Tell me all the team sports that have high school national championships.
Thanks.
i just want to respond to one of kyle's comments. this blog as far as everything i have posted has been entirely accurate.
no misinformation has been spread.
all of the comments made about false information were sentences i phrased as questions seeking the opinions of our readers and other contributors.
i did NOT say that Georgia should be on the list. i said - "wheres Georgia?"
looking for the response kyle gave - they didnt send in a bid.
which is a good comment, now we all know why Georgia isnt on the list. and thus PlayUltimate lives on another day as a more extensive informational source for high school players.
we (at the blog, or at least i can speak for myself) are not seeking to undermine in any way the UPA's activities or decision.
one of the main purposes for this site is for a community discussion of all of these issues. yes those answers may have been sought out by emailing you directly and then posting the information you gave me.
and in some instances and topics that is the best, most logical, and most appropriate approach. but for this particular individual topic, i felt that the better approach would be to open up to community debate. and it seems that many people want to discuss this issue.
my personal take - all high school ultimate in good high school ultimate. the more the better. the refinement of the leagues and the legitimacy of tournaments will come with time. but at this stage in the game, the more the better. and quite frankly if it werent for some of the efforts at the UPA compounded by the individual community class acts like Mark Rosser of Philly and other local league organizers I would have never had the chance to play organized ultimate.
and thats something i dont even want to think about.
so in conclusion: ultimate = good. upa = good. playultimate = good. discussion = good.
welcome to the melting pot of the good.
also, yes we can post links, you have to use a tiny bit of html code though
click here for a brief tutorial. you just have to put a little bit of code around the text.
it might be a little confusing at first, but itll be real easy after a few uses.
Sorry, Matt, "misinformation" was the wrong choice of word. But I do feel that doing a bit of research and presenting it in the post, might lead to more quality discussions (both more useful for the players and the UPA as well as more interesting overall).
In response to Ryan, please, please read over the FAQ on the UPA website regarding Easterns and Westerns and the feasibility of qualifiers. You may feel that the most important thing for that event is the top competition, but for us and the membership that has directed us it is both about the competition and using it as an opportunity to grow the sport.
Let me break it down for you. The Amherst Invite has existed since 1994 and has always taken the top teams that have applied. But there weren't that many more teams in 1998 than in 1994. The UPA started HS Nationals in 1998 but there weren't that many more HS teams in 2002 than in 1998. In 2003 we tied the HS State Championships to HS Easterns and Westerns, kept them invite only and used geography as a criteria in selecting teams and the growth has been phenomonal.
If we moved to qualifiers, the qualifying events would have to take place 4-6 weeks prior to the HS Easterns and Westerns (or HS Nationals) which would effectively shorten the season by a TON for most teams. Talk about a disincentive for growth.
The fact is Columbia, Amherst, and Northwest are the anomolies and our structure shouldn't be built for these teams (or more precisely in the short range interest of these teams). Yeah, maybe states doesn't matter a ton to Columbia, but it probably does for the 15 other teams at the event. I know that here in Colorado that is what matters and we've gone from 8 teams in 2003 to 22 teams in our league and likely 26 teams in our state championships this year. By encouraging growth in both numbers and talent we will provide more competition in the long-term for these top teams.
no apologies needed, tsall cool.
from what ive heard by the way, that 8 - 26 teams growth is happening all around the country.
philly has gone from around 5 teams in its first inception years back (98ish?) to now over 30. combined with Pittsburgh's 25+ teams and now the central PA leagues with more than 10 teams - its really just an awesome thing to watch and be a part of.
Ryan,
Thanks for answering my questions and for reading my prior posts. I am sorry that you missed the 04 nationals. It was a lot of fun. The scheduling issue is an issue for many high school students playing ultimate. Because of scheduling issues Paideia wasn't at 04 and I know other teams have had to show up at Easterns/Westerns/Nationals without their full roster. That is why high school is so difficult to do as a national championship.
I agree with you about the fall club series. Most of the high school kids I know who play in those games are doing it to have fun and get more games in.
I am against youth club being in the fall. If ultimate wants to grow it needs to serve multi-sport athletes. Having a fall club tournament would in my opinion keep those athletes from competing. In time I think the summer club tournament will grow. The YCC is a chance for the best players in each league to get together and go play against the best from other towns, leagues, and regions. In time, I think there is a better chance of a summer UPA youth club series than a high school series.
You are probably right that HS state tournaments might not be the end all for high school ultimate, especially in states that are smaller. In some of the bigger states there will probably be multiple tournaments (i.e. norcal and socal). In Washington it is my goal to grow the sport so big that we will eventually have to split the tournament by school size.
Whether or not I agree with you about all the issues, I do like your energy. I hope you are in a position where you can get together a YCC team. And it will be your generation that makes ultimate a mainstream sport by putting in the work en masse that has already started.
Good luck to you and Columbia this season.
-Mike Mullen
PS - It is possible to be self-depreciating and competitive at the same time.
Maybe YCC would be better if there were club warmup tournaments and you weren't just together for one tournament and the practices beforehand.
Ryan,
Thanks for the continued feedback. I do not have a lot of time right now to respond to everything that you brought up, but I do want to respond to one thing. You mentioned that we've limited the number of club teams to 8 by handing out those bids in March. That's not exactly true, those bids are handed out to leagues and not teams.
Here in Colorado the Denver Youth Summer League will have several teams worth of players - the top players on those teams will try out for the Denver Youth Summer League teams that will be at YCC.
This is the model that we are going for with the YCC. It's already happening here and it wouldn't happen if it weren't for the YCC.
In Seattle they already had club teams that competed. Because we went to single school rules, that club team could not compete at our HS tournaments. The single school rules have certainly promoted growth. But becuase Ultimate developed differently in Seattle the YCC is helping to promote and encourage that kind of growth there and in the rest of the country (since Seattle is clearly a great model for the rest of the country in terms of Youth Ultimate).
The YCC is set up to encourage more leagues to develop and we will expand the event as more leagues do develop and can send teams.
Ryan, your enthusiasm is great and your arguments are all very well thought out - believe me, we weighed the points that you presented when we made the decision to structure the competetive side of youth Ultimate the way that we did. For every experience that you have pointing to a different way of running things, there are countless other experiences that point to other ways to do it. The UPA's job is to take all of those experiences of all of these players and make something that serves them as well as we can. Your opinion is as important as Mike Mullen's players, Tiina Booth's players, and the thousands of others out there and so it is good to hear. If we start hearing the majority saying that HS Nationals and Regional qualifiers for it will improve growth in their area we will certainly look at it long and hard, but at this point, there appears to be very little demand and very high success with our current structure.
Kyle wrote:
"The Amherst Invite has existed since 1994 and has always taken the top teams that have applied. But there weren't that many more teams in 1998 than in 1994. The UPA started HS Nationals in 1998 . . ."
I hate to do this, Kyle, but I have to correct some misinformation here. The Invite started in 1992, which is why we are celebrating our 15th anniversary this spring. And the UPA most decidedly did not start HS Nationals in 1998. David Caruba of CHS and I founded Nationals then, and the UPA reluctantly came on board when they realized we were going to make it happen no matter what. As a matter of fact, the relationship was so strained that we (youth organizers) had our first serious discussion about breaking away from the UPA and founding JUPA or JUA or whatever acronym we could think of.
And while it is easy to disparage hs Nationals as not being representative of the entire country, Seattle did send two teams to the first event, thereby establishing a personal and competitive connection between the two coasts. The growth that we are experiencing now, I believe, is a result of the short-lived Nationals series, established tournaments such as Spring Reign and Amherst Invite, regional growth, camps, and the league and states structure. But probably the most important factor was the hiring of Kyle and the UPA's commitment to growing juniors ultimate. I remember calling the UPA in the early 90's and asking for a list of hs teams in the country and being told that there was "No way" they could provide that kind of information.
The fact that we can even have a dialogue with a UPA rep of the Juniors Division is remarkable in many ways.
Finally, to those teams and players who are frustrated with the current structure, perhaps you just have to step away from it. As I said before, we are done with YCC, we aren't going to States as Amherst Varsity (although our school will be represented), and we are only going to the Paideia Cup, the Invite, and Easterns, as well as a few college tournaments. We will play between 20-30 games, as opposed to 60 in 2005! Perhaps the next step will be more events like the Paideia Cup which are small, invitational, and provide strong competition. We no longer feel an obligation to attend every juniors event in our vicinity, and I think that's a good indicator of the solid growth we are seeing.
(Tryouts at ARHS start today-35 degrees and windy. We have between 50 and 60 kids trying out for 3 teams (Varsity, JVA and JVB) and will possibly have to cut 5-10 players. JVA is being coached by Andy Vernon-Jones and Darden Pitts is coaching JVB. Let the season begin!)
I dont even know if anyone will see this anymore but doesnt anyone have any information on why Atlanta doesnt send a team? There is a strong program there it seems slightly strange...
Also, PA, no girls interest up there? Just curious.
Last year the YCC team was led by Baccarini(Paideia) and Murray(Woodward), Murray is back off to school, and Baccarini is coaching the USA Youth National team. Also I think Paideia's 3 top players made the US Youth team.
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