My original post, made two days ago, has stirred a bigger pot that I was aware it would. I had ended my semi-lengthy post with this paragraph:
I am sure that my retelling will contain within it a few controversial aspects that might get people writing, including, but not limited to official loss, but technical win by South Eugene in the semis that moved Alameda into the finals instead of them... or the potential spiking ban in juniors ultimate now being pursued by the upa...
RE: Alameda HS
I would like to clarify what I meant by mentioning the the controversal aspect about Alameda's birth into the finals. I in no way meant to convey they did not deserve it or that South should have been playing in it. Alameda is an amazing team that has come out of the woodwork much like my own team Churchill to become a contender. They deserve all the recognition and respect of a team of their calibure. I apologize to those who felt I was meaning anything other than that. Any team that can come back from both a quarter final game and semifinal game to make it into the finals is worthy of respect. I only shared the comment in that it is a 'unique aspect' of the Slopfest V tournament and that its' story should be told.
RE: Spiking & UPA
The 'potential spiking ban' that I elude to came from what I heard at the captains meeting. The words were spoken by a well respected, knowledgable, and UPA advocatating individual. I cannot say how his words were perceived by others, but my ears understood his comments to mean that spiking was no longer allowed by the UPA and that youth players who did so during this tournament could forfiet their UPA membership. His words created quite a stir among our team and South Eugene since both have experienced spiking in positive & negative ways. Since stating those comments, many of you have already written in your feelings about spiking, both in favor of and against. I have had a highly encouraging email conversation with Kyle Weisbrod, Director of Youth Development, about the UPA's stance on spiking in the youth division. All I will say of that exchange is that the issue is of concern and that as the UPA is us, the players, and it wants to know what we think... So, I know that I speak for at least one player who would like to know more about what the rest of the country thinks.
Do you think that spiking has a place in youth ultimate?
Does spiking take away from or add to the 'spirit of the game'?
What has your experience with spiking been? celebretory or spiteful?
If you are a youth player, do you spike the disc? if so, how often?
If you are a coach, do you teach never to spike or use disgression?
Tuesday, February 28, 2006
Stories from Slopfest V 2 - UPDATED
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26 comments:
How would a spiking ban be enforced? A spike is a turnover? People who spike need to sit out points?
Not encouraged by that.
official loss, technical win?
At the time the hard cap came on South Eugene should have won. Neither teams heard the horn or looked at their schedule/watches and noticed what time it was until a few points later. They enforced the cap then, and Alameda scored one to tie it and another to win it.
in the past, i have played in tournaments where a spike negated the point. now, whether the teams considered that a turnover, or a score/no point/new pull, i never really saw that enforced enough for someone to call it. there were warnings, but most of the teams have been cool enough not to spike.
"act like you've been there before"
-Tom Landry
think about this...
http://www2.upa.org/upa/board/conduct
Ethics violations and conduct complaints have been filed many times. I have a friend who was barred just last year from UPA events. Whole teams in the pass have been barred.
However, it all comes down to this.
http://www2.upa.org/coaches/spirit
Especially this part:
-"Because the potential for misperception is high, spiking is prohibited at the youth level unless otherwise agreed upon by the coaches or captains. Spiking in a disrespectful manner is never ok at any level."
Lastly there are simple ways to make a punitive system if you wanted to...which by the way, I would not support.
Think of football...you get penalty on the kick off...for ultimate receiving team gets the disc at midfield.
Spiking is a form of celebration...are we not allowed to smile when we win either? As long as the spike isn't directed toward a player, it's fair game. It should be to the player's discretion whether the spike is appropriate or not.
Being cocky and arrogant is most fun when other people think your a nice guy.
Thats why i dont spike at least.
"We get one, two, three technicals but we win and that's the biggest spit in the face." Rasheed Wallace.
I don't think that spiking is inherently a bad thing or 'against spirit'. I definitely think that spiking against a team much worse than you, or in a blowout, is uncalled for. And spiking against a team much better than you, or on the losing end of a blowout, is just silly. But it a hotly contested battle of two somewhat evenly-matched teams, spiking can help rally a team, get them fired up, etc.
On the flip side, spiking can also rally the team that just got scored on. But that's a risk you run.
Here are my thoughts on the matter (as an individual Ultimate player, not as a representative of the UPA). What sets Ultimate apart from other sports is that with every action that we take it is our responsibility to consider others. Those "others" include your teammates, opponents, as well as people watching. If I spike the disc in celebration I might not intend any disrespect to my opponent, but that does not mean that none is taken.
Perhaps my opponent and I have an undertanding that it is "ok" to spike. But when I spike the disc, my opponent might not take disrespect, but that does not mean that his teammates don't take disrespect.
Perhaps both teams have an understanding that it is "ok" to spike. But when I spike the disc, while the opposing team does not take it as disrespect, that doesn't mean that the Middle School kid that is watching the game undertands that "agreement" between the teams and understands that when he plays it is not ok to disrespect his opponents in similar ways.
The fact is that spiking does send a message and one which you might not intend to send. Clear communication is a fundamental part of the Ultimate community being so strong and spiking is poor communication. There are ways to express your excitement about scoring without possibly offending your opponents or sending the wrong message to people that are watching.
All that being said, I am against a "ban" on spiking. Obviously the question of enforcement is an issue. But, secondly, mandating what is or is not good spirit takes away from a player's responsibility to understand what is apporpriate and actually respect his/her opponent. I think the best way to handle the issue of spiking (and issues similar) is by explaining to people the reasons why spiking can hurt the sport (becuase I believe they are good, strong reasons) and for individuals to communicate these reasons, particularly when someone does spike.
-Kyle Weisbrod
There is a time and place for spiking. I am definately not against it, but there are times when it shouldn't be done. I don't think that it should be done in blow-outs or when playing in non-intense games. I do think that spiking is appropriate to an extent in really intense and important games. In these really intense games, spiking gets your team excited and can really pump up players on the team. As long as it isn't done in a way to put down the other team or the person you scored on, I think that it is ok.
Are we all a bunch of babies? A reason for banning something cuz it "hurts their feelings" I can bet more than likely the other team would be pissed off because they are losing not because the other team spiked it.(Unless of course is was on some dude) They just need something else to blame their frusteration on so they pick a celebration spike. Wah Wah Wah...
We're in high school, we're adults, I think we can handle a disc being spiked...
maybe the issue should just be brought up when the captains flip before the game. that way it can be agreed upon by those who are playing the game, and not by those who aren't.
I think that is a good point Julia. And for example when our teams play eachother (south and churchill) sometimes spiking is just part of scoring the point and getting your team hyped. We don't care if either team spikes the disc, because both our teams do it in non-negative ways. It is not like we are spiking to "hurt feelings" or put down others. If the team you are playing doesn't like the idea of spiking though, I think it is good to try not to do too much spiking and if you do, with less intensity. It is important to respect the other team. So talking before the game I think is a good idea.
I "third" Julia's idea of talking it out before the game--nothing like proactivity to help prevent a misunderstanding.
When considering this topic, it may be relevant to note what the NBA has recently done in instituting a pre-game dress code. More than upping the class and respectability of individuals or their teams, this new policy suggests that the NBA's powers-that-be recognize that the way professional athletes present themselves (and, thereby, the game itself) DOES influence the younger generation of athletes.
Ultimate can learn from this move that, if we want the sport to grow and remain attractive to the broadest possible audience (not just the ultra-competitive elite-level players), we'll need to continue displaying good Spirit, ESPECIALLY at the highly-visible (relatively so, anyway) elite level.
Ask 10 ultimate players why they began routinely playing our sport, and I'd bet at least 7 of them would mention SOTG as a major factor in the equation.
Now, does spiking and raucous celebrating mean poor Spirit? Not necessarily. I agree with those who have differentiated between antagonistic spiking/celebrating and that which serves only to spur your own team on. There is a fine but certainly discernable line between these two types of reactions.
Is it too much to ask that high school kids observe and respect this barrier? NO WAY. To assume they're not capable of telling the difference is to underestimate, even insult their intelligence. As long as they are aware of the expectation, I have found that the vast majority of players will behave accordingly.
This is where the elite game comes in. They, to a certain extent, with their relative visibility and power to shape the sport, have the responsibility to set these expectations.
I agree completely with Kyle's post and would like to add the perspective of a coach. I have spoken at length about this with my players and here is the way we currently look at spiking:
1) "Spiking is self-indulgent."
(Darden Pitts). For us at ARHS, being part of a team is what defines us. For someone to take away the focus from the team, and celebrate by spiking, is against one of our core beliefs. We also discourage kicking water jugs, throwing down your hat, sulking on the sideline, arguing with each other, etc. for all the same reasons. Instead we immediately focus the celebratory energy into playing tough defense on the next point.
2) Discussions about interpretations of spiking are almost always counterproductive. Why would you waste energy on such a discussion when there are so many more important issues at hand?
3) Spiking is simply poor strategy. If your team needs it to get fired up, then this could be a problem. We try to maintain an intense and even focus throughout an entire game or tournament, and theatrics on the field is distracting. And if you spike on us, well, we only use it to fuel our focus and desire.
4) Finally, as an English teacher, I don't believe that you can just assign definitions to acts that already have a meaning in the larger world. If I give the finger to someone, everyone pretty much knows what it means. I would find it difficult to explain that it really was a celebratory finger and was not directed at anyone personally.
With all this said, I would not like to see a ban on spiking, although I do think the UPA could and should be much more proactive when it comes to setting competitive standards in their series. I think spiking is perfect for fun tournaments where a certain amount of theatrics is expected.
But in a tournament with fans and non-ultimate people, I believe that respect for ourselves and our sport is most easily communicated by avoiding spiking. Many of us are in a constant battle for fields and resources, and are often scrutinized by athletic directors and school staff who are more invested in traditional sports. I don't want to give anyone an easy reason to curtail the growth of our sport.
At the 8:30 captain's meeting, before play began, we all agreed that our teams would not spike the disc. We DID what Julia suggested, yet it wasn't followed. This made spiking at Slopfest all the more insulting when it happened. It has never even crossed my mind to spike a disc on a score. If you need to spike something, play football or volleyball.
Spiking at Slopfest? I maybe saw one soft spike at Slopfest, but I would have to say that was it. I know I didn't see all the games, but spiking was something that was definately never really done at all. I was also at that captains meeting and never remembered agreeing to not spike. All that was said was that spiking in youth upa sponsored events could get your membership taken away and that you wouldn't be able to attend upa events. It was said that spiking should not be done in the tournament (by a coach of one of the teams), but it was never agreed upon. But, I think that teams were very good about not spiking during the tournament and respecting what was said at the captains meeting.
The funny thing is that the tournament wasn't even upa sponsored, so those rules didn't apply anyway.
Don't get me wrong though, I had an excellent time at the tournament and thought that all the teams had great sportsmanship and were a lot of fun to play against, especially the games against Castro Valley and Alameda.
Well, I was going to write something longer but luckily Tiina said what I wanted to say, but said it better. Thanks Tiina.
Northwest School Boys don't spike as a team policy. We feel it is too easily seen as taunting and really only fires the other team up.
We have been in some big games the last two years and when teams spike on us, we only play harder and with more focus.
Another issue as far as all this goes is rushing the field after every score. I don't like that either. I don't think the field should be rushed unless you have just won a big game.
-Mike Mullen, Northwest School Coach
As the TD of Slopfest, I feel like I need to clear up some misconceptions.
First off, at the captain's meeting Mike DeSousa, the coach of Alameda, asked to speak, and I said sure. He said that in UPA Youth Events you are not allowed to spike, and that you can get banned for doing so, and that we should all keep it friendly out on the field. Some people murmured okay, and that was the end of it. Never was it said that you weren't allowed to spike at Slopfest or anything like that, at least certainly not by me.
Second, I did not see a single spike on the weekend. I played in 5 games, watched the finals and saw parts of other games when my games ended early. Nobody on my team spiked it, and I didn't see anybody else spike it. I got a report about a certain team being not cool and the person said they had spiked it, but when I talked to the team they both cleared up what they had been accused of saying, and said that the so called spike was somebody scoring and tossing the disc to the ground, not spiking it down on its side and celebrating.
Regardless, spiking was never banned. You could've thrown the disc a hundred feet in the air and screamed like crazy when you scored, and as the TD I wouldn't have done anything, as I don't feel that it is my place to tell you how or now not to celebrate.
Which brings us to my last point. I am completely against a ban on spiking. I generally think it is a dumb thing to do and I've never personally spiked the disc, but it's not my place to tell you not to do it.
Alright, I'm an Alameda player and formerly an avid spiker.
I've been playing the game a long time; 7th grade to be exact. Every time I score in an event, I spiked it. It's only natural (for some of us), especially if that adrenaline is flowing.
My view on spiking goes something like this: If you're trying to fire up your team, there are better ways to do it. Scoring should get them fired up enough, and getting scored on is embarrassing enough as it is. To spike after your man gets beaten is only more humiliating. I'm not sure if a ban would work or be enforced, but I think it should be discouraged.
As for Slopfest, there was one spike as far as I saw and it was in the finals. It wasn't really a good catch or anything, but it was clearly a spike. Then there was a little dance at the end, but I thank Luke for settling things.
I, too, was at the captains meeting and heard Mike D. saying something about no spiking at youth events. Because no one objected, I assumed that everyone was in agreement. Now, however, it seems that others at that same meeting assumed that because we all didn't spit and shake on it, we were in disagreement. Interesting. So, what signifies agreement? What if teams getting ready to play eachother can't agree on the spiking issue? In tournaments, SHOULD it be addressed by the TD? Or, is it still up to each individual game?
We had three definite spikes against us--and we were just the 15 seed. It disappointed us because we thought that everyone was playing by the same rules--namely, no spiking. Now I realize that these 3 opposing teams must have been confused when we got bent out shape at their spiking.
Spiking is a hotly contested issue and it won't just go away. I think that youth TDs really need to address it. And, in my humble opinion, spiking will more often be interpreted as a taunt, whether or not it is meant as one.
I do need to say, that the spiking incidents are at the bottom of my team's list of memories for the weekend. We had an amazing time. We met some great great people. One of my girls said to me on Monday of last week, "I can't remember when I had this much fun." I was right there with her.
---Jennifer Moore, Miramonte HS
Amen
well said jacob
If you're a player with good spirit you don't have to think about stopping yourself from committing a bad foul or making a bad call, these are things you just don't do. In the same sense, if you have to actually stop and make yourself not spike the disc, even though it is your inclination because you're so excited, it seems that this rule is not in accordance with the rest of the spirit of SOTG.
Also, do you see spiking the football as a taunt in the NFL? I mean it's one thing when Chad Johnson does some dance or something but when a guy spikes the disc and jumps into the crowd isn't that about getting the crowd and his team involved, besides his own massive excitement? Is it a taunt when a soccer player runs down the field like an airplane or takes off his jersey i.e. did you feel as though Brittany Chapman was unspirited when she ripped off her jersey at the Women's World Cup?
Secondly, as per Darden Pitts comment:
"For us at ARHS, being part of a team is what defines us. For someone to take away the focus from the team, and celebrate by spiking, is against one of our core beliefs. We also discourage kicking water jugs, throwing down your hat, sulking on the sideline, arguing with each other, etc. for all the same reasons"
First of all, are spiking and kicking water jugs or throwing your hat really equal? I would suggest these things are completely different. One is a positive emotional outburst whereas the other is the manifestation of clear frustration which will only take you out of your own game, and certainly will not affect your teammates postively. It also can make the opposing team feel better as they see your frustration. Besides that, I wonder how Darden reconciles his anti-spiking stance when he plays with DoG because I am CERTAIN that DoG doesn't believe that spiking takes away from their sense of team/is a negative action. They always slap five or hug immediately after, a truly team oriented action, so is it really self-indulgent? Maybe my views aren't as vaild being a college and club player, but I see some cognitive dissonance here...
haha, Brittany is a friend of mine. Guess my mind is in the wrong place...
Thanks for the edit.
-handy-
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